The Committee met at approximately 9:00 a.m. in the Assembly Chamber.

MR. FORSEY: Good morning, everyone.

The first order of business this morning, apparently we have to elect a Chair and a Vice-Chair at each Estimates beginning for the total budget. Elizabeth, do you want to run this election?

CLERK (Ms Murphy): Okay. I will do the Chair and you do the Vice-Chair.

CHAIR: Okay.

CLERK: Is there a nomination for Chair?

MR. LODER: I nominate Clayton Forsey for Chair.

MR. DINN: I second that.

CLERK: Okay.

All those in favour, ‘aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

CLERK: Contra-minded?

Carried.

CHAIR (Forsey): Okay.

I will call for nominations for Vice-Chair.

MS MICHAEL: I nominate Roland for Vice-Chair. I presume somebody will second me on that, (inaudible) anybody.

Thank you very much.

CHAIR: Nominated by Lorraine Michael, seconded by John Dinn. Roland Butler is now Vice-Chair whether he likes it or not.

We will start this morning with introductions first. Normally, the way it works is that the minister will get fifteen minutes to discuss his department and have a few comments. There will be fifteen minutes for questions unless we need a little bit more. You can go back and forth if necessary; we have never had a problem with that.

We will begin with the introductions on this side, starting down here on the end.

MR. MORGAN: Ivan Morgan, Researcher, New Democrats.

MS MICHAEL: Lorraine Michael, Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi, NDP caucus.

MS FARRELL: Natasha Farrell, Researcher, Liberal caucus.

MR. BUTLER: Roland Butler, District of Port de Grave.

MR. POLLARD: Kevin Pollard, Baie Verte-Springdale.

MR. LODER: Terry Loder, District of Bay of Islands.

MR. BUCKINGHAM: Ed Buckingham, St. John's East.

MR. DINN: John Dinn, Kilbride district.

CHAIR: Clayton Forsey, Exploits.

Minister, if you want to introduce your group that you have there, your staff, and then probably have an introduction from your department; however long, it may be up to fifteen minutes if you require.

MR. HEDDERSON: Okay, yes.

Tom Hedderson, MHA for Harbour Main-Whitbourne, Minister of Transportation and Works.

MR. CHIPPETT: Jamie Chippett, Deputy Minister, Transportation and Works.

MR. MOORES: Weldon Moores, ADM, Strategic and Corporate Services, Transportation and Works.

MR. ANTLE: Kevin Antle, Departmental Comptroller, Transportation and Works.

MR. SCAPLEN: Roger Scaplen, Director of Communications, Transportation and Works.

MS VOKEY: Sharon Vokey, Executive Assistant, Transportation and Works.

MR. ALEXANDER: Paul Alexander, ADM, Marine Services.

MR. GOSSE: Gary Gosse, ADM, Transportation and Works.

MR. HEDDERSON: Mr. Chair, again, how quickly a year goes by. I am just looking over at Roland and Lorraine. Obviously, we are into another year and I just want to report with regard to my department. It is steady as she goes. I think you will see in the Estimates that we have basically held ground. Any new increases you will see are mostly – we deal with a lot of contracts, and we have some new tenders that went out this year. So you will see an increase in our spending but it is a natural increase, an increment that happens every year.

We have basically tried to put forth in this Budget an indication that we are continuing on with the strategies we have had in place over the last number of years: our vessel replacement, our infrastructure strategy, and our roads strategy. I think as we go down through the Estimates it will be clear as to the directions we are going. I will keep my comments to a minimum. I know these days time is of an essence; but, again, I am very glad to present to you the Estimates of our department.

Also, I would just like to take the time to welcome my new deputy minister. You may be familiar with Jamie. Jamie has been involved in government for any number of years. We welcome him aboard. Indeed, as well, much of the work that has gone into these Estimates is from our former deputy minister. I would also like, in the record, to indicate that Bob Smart was obviously a fantastic deputy minister and government worker, I think all of thirty-three years.

Again, we are here to discuss the Estimates and I will put it to the floor now so we can have an open discussion. Again, I am hopeful that we can answer your questions, some of which we may have to go away and get back to you with an answer. Whatever the question comes across, we will do our best to provide you with the information.

So, Mr. Chair, I hand it back to you so that we can proceed.

CHAIR: Thank you, Minister.

Before we begin, we will call for subhead 1.1.01. With that, we will begin with the questions.

Roland.

MR. BUTLER: Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I want to welcome you, Minister, and your staff, and also to welcome your new deputy minister. Before I go into some of the one-liners, Minister, just some general questions, and they could be all over your book, they might not be in order. I know with your expertise and your knowledge on this department you can answer them anyway, and I mean that sincerely.

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes.

MR. BUTLER: Under the roads and bridges, construction and repairs, was there a carry-over of last year's roadwork announcements? Is there any carry-over from last year?

MR. HEDDERSON: What subsection is that?

MR. BUTLER: Like I said, I have nothing – it is just a general question.

MR. HEDDERSON: Okay. Could you repeat that again? I am sorry.

MR. BUTLER: Yes. I am just wondering, is there any carry-over from the money that was allocated last year for roadwork?

MR. HEDDERSON: Well for roadwork, yes, usually in the run of a year we have anywhere close to $10 million as a carry-over.

MR. BUTLER: Okay.

MR. HEDDERSON: Especially last year with Igor, we did put off some of our work as we just got into trying to do those emergency repairs. I think it is something in the line of - and Gary will correct me - I think it is around $9.2 million. As well, that is in our provincial roads program. I would say as well, some of our bridges and our infrastructure on the roads are carried over a number of years. Like the lift bridge in Placentia, for example, that is unfolding as it should.

You will see in the Estimates what we predict will be spent this year. Sometimes conditions - it is construction, we do not get to that amount, but we carry it over into the following years. There is in the roads program $9.2 million but also in individual projects you will see that they are sometimes carried over and spaced out over – Team Gushue Highway, the Torbay Bypass, these sorts of projects are ongoing and there are some carry-overs there as well.

MR. BUTLER: It is amazing you mentioned Team Gushue because that was my next question.

MR. HEDDERSON: I am anticipating.

MR. BUTLER: I was just wondering, what is the status of the first tender for construction and when do you anticipate the actual construction to begin?

MR. HEDDERSON: I am going to pass that on to Gary Gosse, my ADM for roads. Gary, if you would.

MR. GOSSE: Actually, the first tender that we called for Team Gushue was for clearing the right-of-way, that contract has been completed. We have a project out to tender now for construction of the second overpass over Kenmount Road. That contract closes either today or early next week. We anticipate the first contract for actual construction by the first part of May to the middle of May.

MR. BUTLER: I should have put that word construction in there but I did not, I am sorry about that.

With regard to the Trans-Labrador Highway, I know we heard major announcements during the Budget. I am just wondering: Are there any contracts that have been awarded leading up to this point in time or other work that is probably left over and so on with regard to the Trans-Labrador Highway?

MR. HEDDERSON: The Trans-Labrador Highway, with regard to construction, is moving along as planned with the completion of the hardening, widening of Phase I. Of course, every two years a contract goes out for two years worth of work. Gary, if you could just give the details of that and who it was awarded to?

MR. GOSSE: We just awarded two contracts worth $40 million in total to Humber Valley Paving for another 160 kilometres of hard surfacing on Phase I. There are two carry-over projects on the widening part of Phase I and they should be finished by mid-summer this year. Both of those contracts are being done by Johnson's Construction out of Pasadena.

MR. BUTLER: Thank you.

MR. HEDDERSON: When did we put out that last tender? We have one more. That would be about 160 kilometres – it is 160 kilometres. We got approximately 160 left. So we would put that contract out when?

MR. GOSSE: The remaining 160 kilometres will be tendered about this time next year.

MR. HEDDERSON: So in the next two years, we will have all the work out. Of course, then we will be setting our sights as to where we go from there. We are not waiting until that comes. What we are looking at now is going back to the drawing board, knowing that we are getting Phase I to a conclusion, and look at where we are going further.

There are some options here, of course, because we have to look at the completion of the Trans-Labrador Highway, which is an extension to the North Coast. That has to be looked at. On that one, we are kind of just holding back, because the Aurora – it is not Aurora now, but the uranium mine. A decision would be made on that soon. If the moratorium continues, then we will have to look at it. It might not necessarily be a road to Postville; that could go to Rigolet. Right now, if the mining did go ahead, it would be a wonderful opportunity for government to look at the road that would have to go up to the mine and, of course, the line going up as well.

With regard to Phases II and III, we continue to maintain those as best we can, but, of course, we will have to set our sights there as well and try to see where we are going on those particular ones. So a great decision point this year, but again, we are following along on our strategy which is to complete Phase I as we move on then to Phases II and III, or, and, whatever the case might be, to looking at where we are going on the North Coast.

MR. BUTLER: I am going to name four projects now, and I am just wondering what your anticipated completion dates are, like the –

MR. HEDDERSON: Well, I am going to pass them off to (inaudible), so Gary will kick right in there as soon as you go down through them.

MR. BUTLER: Yes, that is fine.

The Sir Ambrose Shea Lift Bridge, the Torbay Bypass, the CBS Bypass, and the Kenmount Road Bypass, I am just wondering, what are your anticipated completion dates on those?

MR. HEDDERSON: Gary.

MR. GOSSE: The Sir Ambrose Shea Lift Bridge, we will be calling tenders for that one in the coming weeks. That is a two-year project, so two years from this fall we should be finished on that one. CBS Bypass is about two years out. Torbay Bypass should be finished this summer, mid to late July. The fourth project was…?

MR. BUTLER: Kenmount Road.

MR. GOSSE: The overpass at Kenmount Road?

MR. BUTLER: Yes, I am sorry.

MR. GOSSE: That should be finished this fall.

MR. HEDDERSON: On the lift bridge as well, I just want to mention, that is a different type of a bridge, and one that there is no expertise in the Province to do it, it is a lift bridge. Also, for your information as well, we have gone out and done some consultation with the council out there and we are following up with a consultation session. It is more of a consultation-information session, where we go out and we outline it for the people out there. That will be taking place in next couple of weeks, I guess, Gary?

MR. GOSSE: May 10, it is scheduled for.

MR. BUTLER: Like you said, that is a different type of bridge.

MR. HEDDERSON: It is.

MR. BUTLER: I am just wondering: If you are working on a bridge on the TCH, we see them put in - I do not what you call them now - one of those temporary bridges. What happens there?

MR. HEDDERSON: No, on this case - just to stop you there - the bridge stays there and we build one next to it.

MR. BUTLER: All right.

MR. HEDDERSON: There will be some interruption, and the interruption will be for the traffic, of course, in that channel. We have already advised – this is one of the things that go out with the consultations – that we will never have it such that you could not go through, but with construction on we are advising some days – what would be the extent of a shutdown?

MR. GOSSE: We are anticipating two periods of about thirty days, maximum, each. One, when we put the new structure in place over the channel, because you would not want to drop anything on somebody underneath, certainly, and another period of about the same duration when take out the old bridge, for the same reasons.

MR. HEDDERSON: Again, we are trying to make sure that we are out front, because obviously, fishing boats are what goes in there, and we certainly would not want to see a situation where our crabbers were not able to get out. We are working on that and making sure that the public are fully informed.

MR. BUTLER: With regard to the tropical storm Igor we had, first of all, I want to commend your government and your workers out there. It was a tremendous amount of work, and I know you visited all the sites, or just about all of them anyway. I am just wondering: With regard to if there is any maintenance or repair work this year in relation to that Igor storm, what percentage of that would be contracted out or would your own staff -

MR. HEDDERSON: I think I can honestly say that this Igor would be reconstruction. So that would be tenders that would go out. Our workers do the maintenance once the reconstruction takes place, and I think we are talking, right now, about $23 million worth of contracts that will go out to go back over that. You will probably see as well, because we have a wonderful opportunity here with our provincial roads money now, and we are going to look at combining some of these contracts and stretching out the dollar, basically.

MR. BUTLER: Sure.

MR. HEDDERSON: You will notice in our contracts as well that it is not uncommon for us to have one contract out for a couple of electoral districts that abut each other because, obviously, the bigger the contract the more competition you get and the better the price. We cannot always do that depending on the geography and that sort of thing, but we are going to use the Igor tenders to make sure that we include whatever we can there, get the best possible price, and also get one company in there that obviously can do it quicker.

MR. BUTLER: Yes.

What percentage of, I guess, this funding – does it all come from the federal government through the Disaster Financial Assistance Program, the federal? Do they cover the full cost, or what percentage do we have to do?

MR. HEDDERSON: It is so much on the dollar but, again, I am going to refer either to Gary or to Weldon.

Gary.

MR. GOSSE: At this point, the amount that you recover from the federal government depends on the total damages. Right now, Fire and Emergency Services are using a figure of about 80 per cent recoverable.

MR. BUTLER: Eighty per cent.

I will go back another few years to Chantal. We do not have all of our funding from the feds yet on that; do we?

MR. HEDDERSON: I am not as familiar with that. I think that would be more directed toward FES.

MR. BUTLER: Okay.

MR. HEDDERSON: Obviously, they take care of it. I would not want to make a statement because it would only be a general one. I do know that they are working. They have a team over there, Roland, which works, basically, on that particular one.

MR. BUTLER: That is fair, sir.

With regard to the Provincial Roads Program this year, I notice quite a few dollars listed in the budget, but we do not know where it is being spent. As you know, as a critic, the people are calling from all over the Island: What is going to be done? How much is coming to my area?

For instance, the Bay of Islands or Port de Grave even –

MR. HEDDERSON: It is funny you mentioned Port de Grave.

MR. BUTLER: - is there a breakdown that anyone can get their hands on? What is the total –

MR. HEDDERSON: What has happened, as you are aware, MHAs, yourself included, make sure that I, as a minister, am fully informed of the priorities that are in your distinct, either verbally or by e-mail; you make representation with regard to the needs that are there. I go forward, as the minister, in the budget to obviously try to get as much financing as I can for the provincial roads.

This particular year has been as successful as any year and we have basically the same level of funding. What we are doing now is going back through all of those priorities and looking at the Province as a whole in trying to make sure that we are hitting the priorities. We usually look at it as a Province because, for instance, there are essentials that there is no choice in. We have our regular bridge and culvert inspections, from those comes some sort of a mapping. There are a lot of essential projects that there is no question on them, we have to do them.

There is some leeway then as we get into areas or districts that we can look at the priorities of a particular community, a particular region. In the next couple of weeks we will be then allocating those funds, putting the scope of the tenders together, getting them out and advising the local MHAs and interest groups of the ones. As early as next week, you will probably hear from me making some announcements on those obvious ones, whether they are bridges or culverts or those sorts of things and also some of the roadwork that is necessary.

MR. BUTLER: Okay.

Minister, was there any funding in the budget for the Bailey Bridge we hear talk of over in the Codroy Valley?

MR. HEDDERSON: Over in?

MR. BUTLER: The Codroy Valley.

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes, well that is the Searston Bridge?

MR. BUTLER: Yes.

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes, the Searston Bridge is put in as a priority. Now, of course, the job comes of looking at all of the priorities that are there and, naturally, see if that can be funded. What I am saying to you is I have pretty much the same level of funding that we have had over the last number of years and that funding will be allocated as we see fit.

MR. BUTLER: Okay.

Could you give me an update on the two new ferries, the MV Hazel McIsaac and the MV Grace Sparkes?

MR. HEDDERSON: They are in the water and at various stages of certification, and they are floating.

MR. BUTLER: That is good to know.

MR. HEDDERSON: What it is, is that these are the first two that came out. Obviously, Peter Kiewit is not necessarily boat builders. This has been an exercise where the first one, especially, was the learning one. Two steps forward sometimes and a few steps back but we are at a point right now where we are just about ready to accept the keys of that one, if we call them keys or whatever.

I am going to pass it along to Paul, and Paul will give you an update more specifically on where we are with that.

MR. ALEXANDER: On the Sparkes, the first one, as the minister said, we should get the keys today. We expect to get the final Transport Canada certificate around lunchtime. If we do, we can sign for full acceptance.

The Hazel McIsaac did sea trials on the weekend, it went very well. She is probably about five or six weeks away yet before we go out to the certification and final inspection program. That is the way it stands right now. Even if we take Sparkes today, it is probably two to three weeks before she goes into service because we still have to get the crew familiarized and trained before we actually sail around St. Brendan's.

MR. HEDDERSON: Transport Canada will work with the crew to make sure that the crew is certified and know. We are not rushing that because, again, this is a new boat going in and virtually a new crew and we want to make sure everything is perfect before we do the final deed of putting her on the run.

CHAIR: That is your time for the moment there, Roland, if it is okay. I am sure we will come back to you.

I want to make a point, Minister, when someone is speaking, probably for the information of the Clerk and Hansard that they should introduce -

MR. HEDDERSON: I get carried away, Mr. Chair.

CHAIR: That we say the name. You have been doing that with Gary, so we knew it was Gary.

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes.

CHAIR: For the information of Hansard and the Clerk.

Lorraine, if you want to begin some line questions.

MS MICHAEL: Thanks, Clayton.

Before the line questions I will just follow on with the ferries for a minute. Tom, what are the plans now for the next two that are in the long-term plan?

MR. HEDDERSON: What we have right now is obviously the third medium-sized - and I will just go medium size and then I will go back to the smaller ones and then the larger ones. There are three categories that we will look at. The two that are out in the water now are two medium-sized ones and they are looking at going on the Long Island, Little Bay Island and the St. Brendan's runs.

The next vessel, which is the same vessel, is basically - that is the one we are now negotiating with Peter Kiewit. We are in the midst of that right now because we said originally that we wanted the two boats in the water, certified and to our satisfaction as we rolled into the third. That has been delayed. I have accepted the delay because you cannot force it, but the Hazel came out quicker and getting certified quicker and I expect the third one would be an easier boat to build because any kinks or whatever would be worked out.

We are in negotiations now with Peter Kiewit to get that one in and get that one going. As well, to go to the larger category, that is the replacement for the Fogo. Fleetway, a consulting company, are currently working on the design of that particular boat. That is a larger boat and much in the same line as the Flanders, geared towards the Bell Island or the Fogo runs. She is going to be ready, I guess in the design phase by - I am looking at Paul - I think October.

MR. ALEXANDER: At the end of November the detail design should be done.

MR. HEDDERSON: Okay. I would not hold that to a date because it is kind of a fluid thing but we are hoping we will have the medium-sized one in under construction and then we will roll into that larger one. I say that because in Newfoundland and Labrador we know there is only one place we can build a boat. It is not like we are going to go out and look for tenders or anything. We are a preferred customer of Marystown. That is where we want to see the boats built. Hopefully, we can strike a deal with Kiewit to continue the construction of them.

It is interesting on that one, too, because it is the larger ferry. If you want to look at it, it is about half the capacity of the Apollo. Of course, as we are going through, as a side note, we are exploring whether or not that would be an appropriate boat for the Straits as well, but do not hold me to it because it may not work out. It might need a bigger capacity and so on and so forth.

On the Straits, and just to roll over into the Straits because that is the next one we are pointing at, and the North Coast, we have some difficulties there that we need to address. As I pointed out in the House the other day, it is very hard in just a short period of time to do it. On the Straits, we will be looking at what type of boat is suited for there, is it available, will we build, and will we lease? We have a couple of years because the Apollo will be engaged there until 2013.

I hope that helped. I will leave it there and let you zero in on what you want to look at on those.

MS MICHAEL: That is helpful. I wanted to know where the boats in the current plan are. Then I guess the next question is: When did the plan come out? Two years ago was it, the plan for the ferries?

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes.

MS MICHAEL: That was a five-year plan, if I am not mistaken. Of course, Bell Island was not part of that plan.

MR. HEDDERSON: No. Well, Bell Island, all of my ferries are part of the plan because we have to look at the time in trying to get a boat built to get it in and the capacity in which to do that. Right now we are looking at the shelf life of the boats that are in our fleet. Our newest ones are the Flanders, Beaumont Hamel, Gallipoli, and the Nonia. These have shelf life. We have the responsibility to make sure that we get as much shelf life out of any boat. The greatest need was Fogo, and the second greatest need or comparable with that, were the six small ones down on the South Coast and up in basic Labrador.

MS MICHAEL: Well, I will not get into fighting with you over the Bell Island one because –

MR. HEDDERSON: No, we do not need to fight because there are significant challenges that have presented themselves through the years and will continue, not only in Bell Island, with all our ferry services.

MS MICHAEL: We do not have boats servicing that island, which is an island of daily commuters -

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes.

MS MICHAEL: - servicing them to the capacity that they need to be serviced. To me, the boat may have a shelf life but if the boats are not there to serve the people twenty-four seven, then the shelf life means nothing if every second day one of them has to be off. You and I both know that, but I will not continue that here.

MR. HEDDERSON: No, but on that point, the greatest need right now is Fogo. That boat needs to be replaced.

MS MICHAEL: I agree.

MR. HEDDERSON: You will also get agreement on Bell Island. If the two boats that are there now are simply dedicated to those and running, we have as good a service as anywhere. It might not even be Bell Island, but if the Fogo boat goes down, then I have to scramble to try to shift around boats. Again, not having the capacity, which is why the third vessel we are bringing out is an important one, because that is a swing vessel more than dedicated.

MS MICHAEL: Yes.

MR. HEDDERSON: We are trying to build up capacity to be able to respond to what we know are going to be interruptions in that service.

MS MICHAEL: Well, do Bell Islanders have to wait until the end of your five-year plan before knowing what the plan is for after those five years?

MR. HEDDERSON: Well, you have to look at the finances, too. Obviously, what we are hearing with regard to the budget is that we have to be very, very careful about projecting out any capital or current cost. We have a vessel replacement strategy and that is, as we move forward, the boats that are coming out first are those that are most in need of replacement. I believe that we have really zeroed in on those ten boats that really need to come out of the system.

As we build up that infrastructure and part of the problem – and it is not a problem, really. Part of the challenge - let me put it that way - is the safety aspect. That is what is causing, for example, the schedule that we had to revise. It is not about the crew or making the crew any better or anything, it is about safety. You have to rest a crew. Even though it is only a twenty-minute run back and forth, you have to.

MS MICHAEL: Oh, I believe that; that is not a problem.

MR. HEDDERSON: That is where we are running into the challenges in trying to keep up with all the safety regulations that are presented to us and making sure that we are complying with those. That is always a challenge. As well, the finances of it, and it is not about money, but it is about a budget that we put forward and try to maintain in order to provide the basic services that are required. It is a challenge and I think anyone would agree with that.

MS MICHAEL: Right. Oh, I do not deny the challenge.

Roland really has hit on a lot of the questions I was going to ask along the way, so what I am going to do is come and do some of the line items, okay?

MR. HEDDERSON: Oh yes, go right ahead. Just identify the –

MS MICHAEL: What?

MR. HEDDERSON: Just identify the subheading.

MS MICHAEL: Oh, I will; do not worry.

MR. HEDDERSON: Thank you.

MS MICHAEL: That is one thing I am pretty good at.

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes.

MS MICHAEL: Looking first at 1.2.04, Policy, Planning and Evaluation, subhead 01, Salaries, they are going up by approximately $100,000 over the revised. Is that a new position, or is that all just incremental -

MR. HEDDERSON: On that, Lorraine, it is about restructuring.

MS MICHAEL: Right.

MR. HEDDERSON: You will find that as we go through, if you have looked at line 01, Salaries, you are seeing some major discrepancies or changes, not discrepancies but changes. I am just going to get Jamie to give you overall picture because it is indicative of what you are seeing here and there are five, six, seven or eight that would be there. Jamie, I will just ask you just to talk a little bit about the restructuring that was required.

MR. CHIPPETT: As the minister said, this is just one example of several that you will see. There are some salary increases and step increases built in here. In terms of the restructuring, the department has gone through an exercise to try to more appropriately reflect where salary dollars should be allocated based on the workloads in divisions, branches and so on. Overall, our salary vote has not increased by a great deal. We will see some specific examples and initiatives where there have been new positions, but in this instance it is more just a restructuring of some of the salary dollars to more appropriately reflect workload.

There is also, in there, a transfer of a position from a different division who does some work on the engineering side in the Policy and Planning Division.

MS MICHAEL: Right.

Instead of my hitting this everywhere along the way, like 1.2.04, that seems to be the case; 2.1.01, it looks like that might be affected also by a restructuring. It looks almost like every one of the subheads may be affected by that restructuring in terms of personnel. Is that correct?

MR. CHIPPETT: That is correct. There would be a second part, though. One of the other changes the department has made in the budget, or in terms of where dollars are reflected with respect to salary –

MS MICHAEL: Right.

MR. CHIPPETT: - is that we had advice from the Department of Finance that in terms of officials or staff people who would work on particular capital projects, rather than being reflected in their division, whether it was in engineering or what have you, they should be reflected under the capital component of those projects. As an example, you will come to the Sign Shop section and you will see that the salary dollars in that section are less than they were last year.

MS MICHAEL: That is right; I had that noted.

MR. CHIPPETT: The dollars are still there, but they are allocated to particular projects. So, as an example, signs for a roads project would be signed off - pardon the pun - to the capital portion of that particular roads project. That is the other theme.

The third one - I will just mention briefly - is with respect to Igor. Obviously, with respect to the 2010-2011 budget, in particular, the restated projected would be influenced by having staff who were dedicated to the Igor response.

MS MICHAEL: Right. I could see that in a couple of places for sure.

I am going to stay with the theme now, since we have started looking at that theme because it is a big one, and tell me which category of those three that this one fits into. Section 2.2.03, Building Utilities and Maintenance, the change here is $1 million.

MR. HEDDERSON: Jamie, you can take that.

MR. CHIPPETT: Again, you have some salary and step increases. Any of the salary changes, you would see that built in there as well. You do see some, I will call it recharging to capital as well. So, you would have some of those there.

The other thing is there are some new positions in here. This would be one of those examples where there are specific new positions and it is based on a security review that the department did in consultation with Executive Council and resulted in some recommendations for both equipment and new staff to enhance security. The rationale there is we are actually the only jurisdiction in the country where the Legislative Branch of government sits with the Executive Branch of government in terms of departments and agencies. It is a fairly major review. You would see, I think, about $300,000 there that would have been allocated based on that salary review. So there are some new positions in that instance.

MS MICHAEL: Right. Thank you.

I will just come back - my time is not up yet?

CHAIR: At 9:43 a.m., actually. So, you have another couple of minutes.

MS MICHAEL: Sure. I will just do a couple of more under Road Maintenance. I will not hit the salary ones now, so we will see.

Under 2.1.03, Maintenance and Repairs, I guess the question here is – I am going to ask a general question actually because I think that might be the best way of doing it. Under Maintenance and Repairs, I would have expected to see Igor reflected but this does not seem to reflect Igor because it is a status quo budget. There are no big variances or anything; 2.1.03.

MR. HEDDERSON: What line was it you were looking at?

MS MICHAEL: Well, just in general.

MR. HEDDERSON: Okay. So you are looking at the bottom line there?

MS MICHAEL: Yes, I am looking at the bottom line. Like the Supplies is a status quo. There is no big variance except for Allowances and Assistance. The variance is that that was not spent last year. Would not Igor have affected the maintenance and repairs of roads, because you did mention that in your opening?

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes, I will get Gary to answer it because that is about operations and I would rather make sure it is a clear one because the principle is that Igor is really reconstruction.

MS MICHAEL: Yes.

MR. HEDDERSON: Once it is reconstructed then we take care of maintenance and repair of the reconstruction.

MS MICHAEL: Okay, so it is not really maintenance and repair.

MR. GOSSE: That is correct. The funding that you see here in our summer maintenance program reflects our normal summer maintenance. Repairs due to Igor are found in a different section under our roads program.

MS MICHAEL: Okay. Thank you very much.

Under 2.1.04, it is not a line item so much but just a question with regard to the snow clearing. I think this past year you continued in a few areas on the main highway the snow clearing overnight. It is probably too early for an evaluation of that and to know where you are going to go.

MR. HEDDERSON: That is the twenty-four hour?

MS MICHAEL: That is right, yes.

MR. HEDDERSON: We did extend the twenty-four hour coverage, as we have done, with no changes. It is all on traffic count, and when we looked down at the traffic count - and Roland would probably be more familiar with this because he drives it just about every day. We found, for example, that the Veterans Memorial Highway is the sixth in the line of traffic flow. The Outer Ring Road, for example, we found on the weekends is busier than the weekdays believe it or not. There are some areas, so we are enhancing some of those areas and that will come forward in the coming year. We have added on to it and that will show.

Gary, is there anything else on that?

MR. GOSSE: No, that is it, the enhancements on the Outer Ring Road and the addition of Route 75 into Carbonear.

MR. HEDDERSON: What we do with twenty-four hour is really Sunday night to Thursday night.

MS MICHAEL: Right.

MR. HEDDERSON: On the Outer Ring Road and Pitts Memorial, that would be twenty-four seven because on the weekends there is just as much traffic. Of course, as we continue to grow and the traffic counts warrant it, we will look again in the future, but I think given our finances and that sort of thing, that enhancement was due and we did it, and we hope that helps in trying to keep the traffic flow going.

MS MICHAEL: Right. I am not surprised about the weekends being so busy actually on those two highways because people come into St. John's for everything on the weekend; entertainment, everything.

MR. HEDDERSON: Everything. So we have responded to that traffic flow and when people say do this section or do that section, we have to be guided by something and traffic flow is what it is.

CHAIR: Thank you, Minister.

Roland. Sorry about that, but we will get back to Lorraine, I am sure.

MR. BUTLER: Just a comment on the Outer Ring Road. I can go back fifteen or sixteen years when we were in the Department of Transportation at one time and there was an awful battle that the Outer Ring Road should never be built, there was no need for it, but I would like for those people to have a look at it today.

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes. Well the last piece, I guess, is the Team Gushue for in and around the greater St. John's area. I do not think we can…

MR. BUTLER: Yes. I had quite a few on the ferries and so on but Lorraine asked quite a few of them, but just one for clarification. I do not want to go back over the same question again, but did you say when this third ferry is being built you will be looking at – not saying it is going to happen – but to see if that ferry will also fit into the issues for the Straits?

MR. HEDDERSON: We are always thinking ahead, and I am very careful of what I say because it might not be, but here we are building a large ferry and if it could be applied elsewhere, why would you redesign another boat?

MR. BUTLER: That is right.

MR. HEDDERSON: Just to clarify, the third one going in now is the medium-sized one. The fourth one going in would be the replacement of the Winsdor, which is the one that I am talking about. We will see how that works out and we will go from there.

MR. BUTLER: Yes.

Minister, it was also mentioned that there was $5 million for maintenance and upgrades of wharves.

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes.

MR. BUTLER: I know from time to time when you answer questions in the House with regard to the Bell Island ferry, you say it is not always the ferry, it is the docking and so on.

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes.

MR. BUTLER: Have the issues been corrected now with that facility?

MR. HEDDERSON: On the Bell Island run?

MR. BUTLER: Yes. Is this ongoing, more work to be done there?

MR. HEDDERSON: We have a carry-over from last year, and, basically, it is about the marshalling area on the Portugal Cove side.

Do you want to kick in there, Gary?

MR. GOSSE: Yes, we have some carry-over work left to do on the ferry lineup and the marshalling area for the terminal at Portugal Cove, but the wharves and the ramps themselves have all been refurbished in the last two to three years.

MR. BUTLER: Very good.

With regard to asbestos removal, was there very much of that ongoing in this building and were there any major concerns? We have heard a couple of comments, but is there anything still ongoing with that or has all of that been –

MR. HEDDERSON: Roland, the general principle is that all of our buildings have been looked at and obviously, given the age of the buildings, we fully expect them to have a certain amount of asbestos in them. Identifying it, putting a plan in place for the building and also being very cognizant that any renovations or anything going in, there is a procedure that has to be followed. If it is contained, it is when you disturb it that causes – of course right now we are putting in windows and doing the outside. There is a vigilance to make sure that the contractor is proceeding in a way, but I am going to pass it to Weldon to go a little bit further into that.

MR. MOORES: As I understand it, most of the asbestos in the building has been dealt with but in some hard to reach places it was left there and managed. As we do the windows project, there may be some that we encounter and we will take it out as we go.

MR. BUTLER: The other issue, seeing we are on that now, down below where Registry of Deeds used to be, I think it is a projects office now for Transportation and Works there. I know there has been quite a bit of renovations down there and there was an issue that was brought forward by the former staff about air quality. All of that has been taken care of and up to a standard now, is it?

MR. MOORES: Yes, that has been dealt with.

MR. BUTLER: Okay.

The minister just mentioned the repairs on the front of the building. I know there was an article in The Telegram some time ago; I believe you had someone in here who did some work on one of the pyramids. I am just wondering, being involved in the masonry business myself years ago before I got into this racket, I have concerns about the anchoring system they are drilling in so it would be attached. I am just wondering how that is working out? After I saw that article it was interesting. There are no problems with it, is it?

MR. HEDDERSON: It is interesting what you are talking about Roland, because this building obviously was built fifty, sixty years ago and the barriers, what we call vapour barriers and that sort of thing, is a different type of construction. Also, masonry work and what they are doing I think with the grinder is going along, and you have to be so careful. It has to be precise. The anchor system, as was explained, is the best that we could find.

Again, into the details - unfortunately our ADM for Works is not here today, but Weldon, can you make a comment on that? If you would not mind, I would rather our ADM from Works give you a call -

MR. BUTLER: Sure.

MR. HEDDERSON: - and if Lorraine has an interest in it as well, because there are some details; and how that works, you put it in and it expands. It is supposed to be the best that they can have. As well, the people who are working on that have the expertise. As a matter of fact, Olympic had to go to, I think, Central Canada to find the expertise that was necessary, but the good part about it is that you have these experts down and we have some local who are working side by side and under their direction. Not only are we getting the expertise, but we are also getting the trainer training and we will have it then, especially if we work on the Colonial Building and so on and so forth.

MR. BUTLER: I never asked the question because I thought there was something wrong with it; it was more or less out of curiosity (inaudible).

MR. HEDDERSON: I think you should have a conversation with Gerry on that because you would understand it, being a craftsman yourself.

MR. BUTLER: I would not go that far, sir.

MR. HEDDERSON: My stone is holding up very, very good.

MR. BUTLER: With regard to the water bombers that were announced, can you give me an update on what stage we are at with those now? I think there were two water bombers announced.

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes, we have two slated for delivery this year. There has been a little bit of a delay. One is not coming in now until July. The fourth one, we are going to look at in July to see if, indeed, we may want to put that off until next year. Right now, we have slated one to come in. Instead of April, I think, of last year, it will come in, in July. That is late in the season. We would not take the other one until later on, so I might want to put that off until next year. We have provision in the thing to put it off if necessary.

MR. BUTLER: Through the Human Resources Division of your department, how many part-time employees would be there now with the department? How many jobs within the department are contractual?

MR. HEDDERSON: Weldon is our HR person. I think it is the largest department in government with regard to in government. Is there a page that we can refer to?

MR. MOORES: I can get that one, Minister.

Our permanent staff complement, permanent positions, is 1,394; so roughly 1,400 positions. At any given time in the department, because we run seasonally during the winter and during the summer with our projects, there is other seasonal staff on; there would be roughly 500 seasonal positions. Contractual positions within the department, there are very few. There is maybe a handful, probably four or five. I would have to actually check the actual number.

MR. BUTLER: Thank you.

MR. HEDDERSON: Roland, if you want a further breakdown, we can give it to you. It is just a matter of making the request and we will certainly get on it.

MR. BUTLER: That is fine, Minister.

With regard to the summer maintenance crews, I know we have been on this one before and probably in the House as well with regard to the closure of the highway depots over the summer months. That is still staying as last year, is it? They are going to be closed this summer again?

MR. HEDDERSON: Well, it is a little bit different than last year, as you know, because this starts back with grievances that were put in on behalf of the union, individual, group-wise, and otherwise. I think it went all the way to the Supreme Court. Decisions were made; yes, we could manage our operations as we saw fit; that we could layoff and that could close down depots; but, the third point was that we had to do it in line with the collective agreement. The ruling was that we did not. Right now, that is taking place with arbitration as to what awards will come out of that. The union and, of course, the bargaining team here in government are working on that even as we speak.

It goes back to the process of how people were laid off. Naturally, we had to change that because it was ruled it was inappropriate. So we changed it. Weldon, do you just want to run down through basically what we are doing this year?

MR. MOORES: What we are doing is if there are a number of depots to be closed, and I could use the example from the West Coast where if you take Steel Mountain, which is near Stephenville, Peter Strides on the Burgeo road, Port aux Basques depot, and Doyles, during the summer Doyles will remain open. The summer depot for Doyles will be a much larger Doyles area than it was during the winter. So all of the depots I named will be closed. Before we do that, staff will be told they are going to be reassigned to the new Doyles depot.

Once everybody is relocated to Doyles, because in summer we run with a smaller staff complement than we do in winter, we will then look at the seniority listing. Whatever number of people we need, we would do that using the seniority list. Anybody below that line would be given notice of layoff. Then they could bump, per their collective agreement, into other locations.

MR. BUTLER: For instance, I get calls from out our way and the minister's adjoining district as well.

MR. HEDDERSON: I get them too.

MR. BUTLER: Like you said about the seniority, I think some of them are getting layoffs this year and they are wondering is the seniority from this review that is ongoing, will that be completed and taken into consideration this year? That is some of the concerns that they have. Will that be completed this year before anything is done with the plans that you have in place?

MR. HEDDERSON: Basically, the exercise is if you have four depots and we are closing down three for the summer and a fourth one is staying open, we close down all of the depots and designate a headquarters and then we take all of the workers in those four depots – they are aligned according to seniority - then it goes back to the collective agreement as to who has seniority rights and so on and so forth.

MR. BUTLER: I understand that, but the issue over the last three or four years where they were laid off or whatever and the courts ruled that – will that seniority that is in dispute be added to what you are going to be looking at this year? That is some of the concerns they have.

MR. HEDDERSON: No, all I know is that there will be a seniority list according to the years worked and that sort of thing in the new headquarters and they will use that list then. They will match up first, second, third, and fourth, depending on their seniority.

Clear as mud, isn't it?

MR. BUTLER: I will leave it there for now.

MR. HEDDERSON: I wonder when you are going to ask about it again.

MR. BUTLER: I will refer them all to you, sir.

MR. HEDDERSON: On that too, for both of you, if you want to come over and sit down because it is not really a good venue to have back and forth because it is a delicate matter with regard to the workers and that sort of thing. The only thing, the basic thing, is that naturally we could not do the same as we did before because that was ruled to be against the collective agreement, so we are hopeful that this is within the collective agreement.

MS MICHAEL: At times like this, I am glad I am not a rural MHA.

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes, indeed.

MR. BUTLER: Minister, the other thing: Is there more work being contracted out that usually was done under summer maintenance by the staff? I will give you an example: There was some work done in my area last year and I think it was contracted out. A contractor came in just filling in a few potholes on one side of the road, and then they left and went up the shore somewhere. That used to be done by the staff. Is that an issue that is coming forward from people within your department?

MR. HEDDERSON: I do not know the case that you are talking about. That is operations. Again, I will refer to Gary to just give some clarification as to what is going on.

MR. BUTLER: Yes.

MR. GOSSE: We have always done some asphalt work with contractors. By and large, our summertime work crews are fully engaged doing work that they normally do, shoulder repairs, sign installations, some guide rail repair, road grading and so on. Our summer crews are fully engaged. They have never been engaged to do large pothole patching or large areas of maintenance resurfacing for asphalt.

MR. BUTLER: Seeing you mentioned signage, I have some snappers here like they have in those quiz programs. I know other departments are involved with the TODS program but your department has been involved in it for years as well. I was just wondering how that program is unfolding from the perspective of your department, or do you have any involvement? The signs are down I guess but…

MR. HEDDERSON: We do partner with Tourism, Culture and Recreation and the tourism industry, and the decision was made for this type of signage. It is national signage I guess, or nationally accepted signage. Like everything else, we put it up for the most part. In some cases, given the largeness of it, there might be a contract go out to do it if indeed it needs to be done in a particular time.

MR. BUTLER: Minister, another issue came up from some of the communities that require ferry service, and that was the user committee. I was wondering if you gave any reconsideration to re-establishing that committee.

MR. HEDDERSON: I am working currently with the MNL. They had a motion put forward, or a recommendation put forward, and they currently have made representation to me that they wanted a more overall committee, not only dealing with ferries but transportation in general. We are working with MNL to work out the details on that and we will see where that goes.

MR. BUTLER: In the last AG's report, and I know this goes back not only within your term in office but back over many years probably, where it was reported that fifty-six out of 465 recreational vehicles were missing. I was just wondering -

MR. HEDDERSON: Skidoos. They went through the pond, I think.

MR. BUTLER: Is anything concluded on that, or were they just misplaced somewhere and overlooked and not counted properly?

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes, we manage the fleet and of course disperse them throughout the rest of government. As a result of that AG report, naturally some things were supposed to be done that were not being done, logging in, having a particular log book. We have gone back over it and addressed the concerns that were put forth by the AG. As for finding them, again, I will just have to refer to my deputy.

Gary is a busy man back here. He is behind me here.

MR. BUTLER: One of your colleagues said you will never find them.

MR. HEDDERSON: Some of them are twenty or thirty years - a lot of them, if they are skidoos they were probably scrapped or disappeared. I really cannot speak one way or the other on it except to say it is not like a vehicle that is actually registered, but these obviously were abandoned or whatever happened to them.

Gary, you might be able to give a better sense of it.

MR. GOSSE: For the most part, the snowmobiles or ATVs, all-terrain vehicles that were not accounted for were in the area of twenty to thirty years old. Line departments that used those vehicles, I do not think they understood the process for disposing of them once they were no longer serviceable. They just carried them off to a dump or disposed of them in other ways, or scrapped them to take parts off to keep another one going. They were never taken out of the system, but they are currently going through the process of reconciling their lists and providing us with updates.

CHAIR: Roland, we went over a couple of minutes. We may have gypped you in the beginning.

MR. BUTLER: I am leaving that in your capable hands.

CHAIR: If you are okay, we can pass it back to Lorraine I guess.

MR. BUTLER: Not a problem.

MS MICHAEL: Thank you very much.

I always like it when Roland goes ahead because he takes care of a lot of the questions I have.

I am going to come back to doing it through the line items. Looking at 2.3.03, Equipment Acquisitions - I am just giving you that information so you can find your spot in your book. I do not really have a question about the amount of money or anything but I am wondering about a progress report on the purchases of energy efficient vehicles. That is Equipment Acquisitions, 2.3.03.

MR. CHIPPETT: Over the last three years in terms of light vehicles, cars and SUVs, we have purchased seventy-six in total, and of that seventy-six, thirty-one were hybrid vehicles. Those are not only in Transportation and Works but, as Gary said, we manage the fleet. So they would be distributed throughout the various government departments.

MS MICHAEL: Right.

It is great, I think we should have them, but I am just curious, what is the cost of the hybrid vehicles? I know it will depend on the type of vehicle, so there is not just one cost. How does it - I figured it would be Gary again. What is the comparison?

MR. GOSSE: We are paying a premium of about $3,000 to $4,000 on average for a hybrid vehicle over a similarly sized, regular powered vehicle.

MS MICHAEL: Right. I would assume too that besides being energy efficient, are they cheaper to run or not?

MR. GOSSE: We are doing a study on that now. Hybrids, in theory, have been touted as being green and more energy efficient but we are having a look at our numbers now to determine whether it is in fact correct.

MS MICHAEL: Okay, great. Thank you.

This time next year or before that we could get a report on that, do you think? You are looking at it now but how long do you see that taking?

MR. GOSSE: By this time next year we should have a good idea of what the efficiencies are.

MS MICHAEL: Okay, thank you very much.

Under 3.1.01, Administrative Support and Design, subsection 06, Purchased Services; there was a big variance last year in the Purchased Services. Why would that be?

MR. HEDDERSON: You can go with that one, Jamie.

MR. CHIPPETT: I may need to pass that off to Gary as well; but, generally, there was an increase due to additional costs for repairs to equipment.

I do not know, Gary, if there is anything specific on that.

MR. GOSSE: No, that pretty much sums it up.

MS MICHAEL: Because you did not budget that high a number for this year, you are back to the $39,800 again, whereas last year you revised to $110,000. You do not expect to have that much to repair again or was it something special that happened?

MR. GOSSE: There were additional repairs required to equipment because of Igor as well, because we did use a fair bit of our own equipment for those repairs. We had a whole, I think as Minister Hedderson referred to, a sea of yellow. It took a toll on our equipment and of course we had to get it back in shape for winter.

MS MICHAEL: Right, okay. That is logical.

Under 3.1.02, Project Management and Design, subhead 07, Property, Furnishings and Equipment; it is not huge but $24,000 more spent than anticipated. What was that?

OFFICIAL: Can you repeat the subhead, please?

MS MICHAEL: Yes, 3.1.02, subhead 07. The budget was $4,000, it was revised to $28,700 and now back to $4,000 this year. It looked like a one-time acquisition.

MR. HEDDERSON: Do you have that, Weldon?

MR. MOORES: Property, Furnishings and Equipment, it is up in this particular heading. I would have to get further details on what the actual breakdown of costs were, but if we look in other headings under Property, Furnishings and Equipment there has been some savings. Often, what has happened when we budget, we budget on average. Then when we go through the year and we look at what we actually need, there has to be some transfers from one division to the other.

MS MICHAEL: That might be what happened there.

MR. MOORES: Yes. Overall, our spending on Property, Furnishings and Equipment in the department this year is less than it was the previous year.

MS MICHAEL: Right, that is fine. Thank you.

In 3.2.03, Improvements - Provincial Roads, we do have a lot of variance here. Is that because of Igor? I am not going to go through every line. In 3.2.03, Improvements - Provincial Roads, "Appropriations provide for repairs and maintenance of Provincial roads, bridges and causeways."

MR. HEDDERSON: I am looking at Gary. That is Igor, is it?

MR. GOSSE: Yes, all the repairs we did to Igor last September and October are in this one.

MS MICHAEL: This is where they came from? Okay, that is what I figured. Thank you.

In 3.2.04, Canada/Newfoundland and Labrador Infrastructure Framework Agreement, I note that under Professional Services there is a major change downwards. That could be because of federal contribution. I am not sure, so I will let you speak to it and explain it.

Under subhead 05, Professional Services: $2,100,000 down to $100,000, and now this year just $50,000. The second one, 06, Purchased Services, the same thing: $21 million down to $12.8 million and this year it is going to be $16 million. Does that have to do with the federal contributions?

MR. HEDDERSON: The Canada/Newfoundland and Labrador Infrastructure Framework is a seven-year agreement that we have that is due now up until 2014, so it was 2007-2014. These projects usually span a couple of years. Just looking down through, these are significant jobs, so you will see that more as cash flow.

I will just go to Jamie to explain that a little bit better than perhaps I can do.

MR. CHIPPETT: Really, you hit the nail on the head in terms of two things. One is the federal revenue, different approvals, sometimes there are audits that the federal government does before they release the revenue. Also, as the minister said, sometimes it is just a cash flow issue from the perspective of when particular projects are tendered and the progress with construction which, depending on the time of year and so on, can be very variable.

MS MICHAEL: Right.

MR. CHIPPETT: That would explain those variances.

MS MICHAEL: The bracketing under the revenue indicates that much money did not come in, right?

MR. CHIPPETT: That is right; that is federal.

MS MICHAEL: Okay.

MR. HEDDERSON: Under that, Lorraine, for example, the Happy Valley-Goose Bay Airport redevelopment, and, of course, you have seen that as it unfolded; sometimes, in one year they get so much done and then it is carried over.

MS MICHAEL: Okay.

MR. HEDDERSON: The bottom line there is $17.3 million. Some paving projects and the Happy Valley-Goose Bay, the money is there for those projects to begin or continue.

MS MICHAEL: Okay. Thank you very much.

Under 3.2.05, which would have the same explanations, what would be the capital expenditures that you are expecting this year? Basically, the bottom line is $59,760,000.

MR. HEDDERSON: You would be familiar with these. That is the Kenmount overpass, Spencer Bridge, the divided highway between. So, you go down right through a list of them.

MS MICHAEL: That is where they are coming from, those ones?

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes, and a lot of bridges there too.

MS MICHAEL: Right, and bridges too. Okay, great. Thank you.

Under 3.2.08, Canada Strategic Infrastructure Fund, is this the last year for that fund?

MR. HEDDERSON: Weldon, is that the last year? I do not think so. Go ahead.

MR. MOORES: There is some funding remaining. I would have to check the actual date, but there is at least one more year left on that fund.

MS MICHAEL: Okay.

MR. CHIPPETT: Jamie Chippett, if I could add to that, the funding actually would go out to 2013-2014 for CSIF.

MR. HEDDERSON: On the feds, Lorraine, that seven-year agreement, this one. I was talking with the deputy the other day, we have to get on the wagon now and see can we start to put some pressure on the feds to enter into another agreement.

MS MICHAEL: Right.

MR. HEDDERSON: These projects will take us up to 2014, but we do not wait until 2014. When this election is over, I think we are going to start making representation. Jamie has already made representation to his counterparts. It is very, very important that we get some significant dollars because that is what helps us with the Kenmount overpass. If that was all on our dime, it would be –

MS MICHAEL: Well, it should not be.

MR. HEDDERSON: They should be there.

MS MICHAEL: Yes.

Are you satisfied that the projects that you geared for funding for these seven years will all get covered by the end of the seven years, or do you see some expenses going in -

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes, we have been very careful with that because sometimes we will do it 100 per cent, knowing that it is going to be extended; but, like I said, we are far enough out that we are very confident that we will get it in under. These are usually straightforward jobs of paving or bridges and that sort of thing that we make sure we give enough time.

MS MICHAEL: Right.

MR. HEDDERSON: It is not necessarily an open-ended tender, but we make sure that the contractor has enough time to get it done.

The construction of buildings, if you go back to the two buildings that we put up in Labrador West, so you have the Labrador piece in there and then you have the contractors piece in there and we were under the stimulus one there. So, buildings are a little bit more difficult than, let's say, paving roads and so on.

MS MICHAEL: Right.

When it comes to the work that is happening in this building - this is just curiosity now, this question - is that an expense we are fully carrying ourselves, or do we have any help with that one?

MR. HEDDERSON: We have that under what, Weldon?

MR. MOORES: (Inaudible).

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes, it is all on our dime.

MS MICHAEL: That is what I figured.

MR. HEDDERSON: The same way with these infrastructure ones, they have certain criteria that we have to follow. Unfortunately, for the roads for example, it is mainly new construction and that is why we can use it on the Trans-Labrador Highway and those sorts of things. When you get into maintenance and that sort of thing, they say, no; and that is all on our dime.

MS MICHAEL: Right.

I do not need to ask about the Trans-Labrador Highway; I think you answered those questions when you answered Roland.

Section 3.3.01 - maybe I will stop there, Clayton, in case Roland has more questions on roads before going into Building Construction.

CHAIR: You can if you like, sure.

MS MICHAEL: Yes, I will do it that way because he may have more road questions.

MR. BUTLER: Minister, I asked a question early about the office space downstairs, projects office, Transportation and Works. Is that people moved in from within this building, or brought in from outside to set up here in the building?

MR. HEDDERSON: We seem to, from my department, always try to take care of everyone else. There are times when I say we have to take care of ourselves. Now, I think it is within, if I am not mistaken.

Weldon.

MR. MOORES: Primarily, it is staff that were already located elsewhere in the building. Because there is more building work on the go there may be a couple of extra that came in from the region, but, by and large, these people were spread throughout the basement of the West Block previously.

MR. BUTLER: Yes, thank you.

Minister, this is not a major issue, I suppose; we have a problem. In the foyer of the building here, I notice there are rails put across. Do we have more concerns about security within our building? I know before –

MR. HEDDERSON: What was it again? The rails…

MR. BUTLER: The railing out by the main entrance.

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes.

MR. BUTLER: One time there was nothing there, now there is a rail across that you can only get so far there. I was wondering if there was any incident, why that was done or maybe it is just –

MR. HEDDERSON: Is it in the main lobby?

MR. BUTLER: It is in the main lobby.

MR. HEDDERSON: Okay.

MR. BUTLER: You know where the desk is at out in front, there is a security guy there.

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes.

MR. BUTLER: On each side of that, there are railings put across there. I am not saying they are screwed to the floor, but there is a rail there and I was just wondering: Were there security reasons?

MR. HEDDERSON: That gets back to a question, and you already brought it up, with regard to security of the building. We have been user-friendly because, basically, anyone can walk in and the House is here and you have to try to keep that. The report that we got back indicated that we had to be a little bit more careful. So, there are enhancements that we will put around in that sense and also more bodies. We are working through that now and trying to make sure that it is user-friendly, yet there is some degree of security.

MR. BUTLER: I totally agree with you, sir.

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes.

MR. BUTLER: I know you mentioned this building: the exterior, the windows and so on. Like you said the building –

MR. HEDDERSON: The roofs as well.

MR. BUTLER: - and the roofs are fifty-some-odd years old. I am just wondering: Has anything been checked into the electrical and the plumbing systems, or are they up to a standard as we speak?

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes, we have done a complete analysis, Roland. If you notice that we are putting a big shed up out back, it is not for shed parties. That is where our main feeds come in. A year-or-so ago – because there is a redundancy, there are two or three lines coming in there, it is a redundancy. When we went at it, the switches were antiquated and so on and so forth, so we are beginning there.

Also, we have a plan. Just about every floor here, by the way, is on its own; it is just like its own sort of thing. Anyone who is in the building has realized sometimes with our heat and other things, we have to revise this building as completely as we possibly can. It is in the works. There is some money to continue to work on all the systems that are here, especially in the East Block.

MR. BUTLER: Yes.

I will just backtrack now to when we were talking about the summer maintenance and the court case. We hear the figure thrown around of the six point some million-odd dollars that may be involved there. Where would that be in the budget? What is that listed in under?

MR. HEDDERSON: Is that the arbitration you are talking about?

MR. BUTLER: Yes. Would that be in this year's budget under some heading?

MR. HEDDERSON: Weldon.

MR. MOORES: It does not appear in the budget at this point in time. The figure that you are quoting is a figure that the union has put forth. We believe it to be considerably less when the final calculations are tallied.

MR. HEDDERSON: It is still in the works.

MR. BUTLER: Sure, but it is not in this year's budget?

MR. MOORES: No.

MR. HEDDERSON: It is not in our budget anyway. It would not be in any until (inaudible).

MR. BUTLER: Minister, we hear so much about moose accidents in our Province. I think there was another one again last night outside of Grand Falls somewhere. I know people make various comments about brush cutting. I think the brush cutting that is taking place or what I see in our area and on the TCH - I know it is not all done - is a major difference. It is not going to be the be-all and end-all; I will say that to you. I know on the Veterans Highway, the highway you mentioned earlier, I mean if anyone cannot see a moose there now, unless it is in the night, that is possible, but in the daytime there is no need of it for sure because it is cut back and I think they have a wonderful job done with it.

I was just wondering: Are there other initiatives being considered? I have heard your comments on fencing, but there are other people who brought forward issues with regard to light sensors, which I have seen in other Provinces. I do not know if they are 100 per cent accurate or not, but they say they cut back on it. I was just wondering: Has your department considered other options apart from brush cutting and the licence control by another department?

MR. HEDDERSON: Basically, as you pointed out, we will continue with our brush cutting and there is $2 million put aside for that. We are exploring the lighting because, again, there are some conflicting reports about lighting. Even in the experts' report that came in, they were not so sure that lighting was as effective as it should be. The fencing poses tremendous challenges as we go. You ask yourself: If you start the fence, you cannot have an end to the fence or what are you doing. The cost of overpasses, that has to go along with fencing because you have to have an exit somewhere so that the moose will cross.

Having said all of that, that is under review. As well, we are going back to basics and trying to put a system in that will clearly indicate where these moose accidents are occurring. This year we are mapping out our Trans-Canada with the mileage signs, kilometres. As well, we are going back over the accident reporting and putting in a management.

I am just going to get Gary to touch on that for a moment.

MR. GOSSE: What we are doing right now, we are in the process of installing software by way of a Collision Data Management System onto our GIS. We have been consulting or speaking with the two main enforcement agencies, being the RNC and the RCMP. What we will do, once we get the system up and running which should be in four to five months time, all of the accidents that happen in the Province, no matter what is the cause of the accident or the incident, will be recorded by GPS co-ordinates. We will be able to nail down exactly where an incident occurs.

Right now, all of our collisions are recorded by a highway segment. You could have a collision that occurs anywhere within probably a twenty-mile or a twenty-kilometre section of highway. We do not really know exactly where any type of accident is occurring right now, other than to know it is on this twenty-kilometre section. On a go-forward basis, we will be able to identify exactly where a collision occurs. That will help us then narrow down what we need to do or areas we need to focus on, for whatever the cause of a collision is.

MR. BUTLER: I do not know if it was in one of the Atlantic Provinces or going down through the Eastern Seaboard, I remember we travelled through one time and they had a light and it was like a sensor. I do not know how it was set up in the woods part of it, but when an animal was close to crossing the road or near the road this light was flashing. People have to be educated to that because we went past and did not know what it was for.

MR. HEDDERSON: Was it flashing?

MR. BUTLER: It was flashing and we were told after what it was. I was just wondering: Have you looked into that?

MR. HEDDERSON: On that one, because Gary has been in touch with his counterpart up in Ontario, they are currently in the midst of a pilot project up north which puts that kind of technology. They are doing a pilot project on it. We are tracking it very closely.

Newfoundland and Labrador is a challenge: 900-plus kilometres of Trans-Canada alone. As well, with our signage, Roland, we are looking at different types of signage and especially looking at how we are going to strategically place those.

As we move forward, we will continue to do the comparative analysis in other jurisdictions and try to get the solution. I do not know if there is ever going to be a 100 per cent solution, but any kind of initiative, hopefully, will cut down on the number of accidents involving moose.

MR. BUTLER: Minister, I do not know if it is three or four years that I bring up this topic, and I get a response every year, but I still come back to it; I think it is Class 4 roads.

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes.

MR. BUTLER: I know the response I got last year from the deputy minister was: Look, if we take over those roads, well then we are taking away from the TCH and other busy highways. I understand that, but it is not if we take over them. We did have them, but we dropped them. I know the ones in our area were dropped.

I understand, people are not saying they should be graded and plowed every day like an ordinary road or whatever. I was just wondering - I know there was a review on under the former minister and yourself about that - have you really, really, really reconsidered it? Just to take it over, say, grade it in the summer and in the fall and if the farmers have to get into their properties in the winter, just clear it after a major storm, which we do not have that many now like we used to years ago. I am just wondering: Has it been reconsidered? I know the response I got last year, but I said I will try it again.

MR. HEDDERSON: It is still under consideration, but it is more one-offs, Roland, because there are some situations where we have extended coverage because of safety for our workers. That is one that you can do. If you are driving a flyer and you have to back it up to turn around, there are cases where we have extended the coverage for that reason, to make sure that our drivers are safe, not only our drivers but, of course, the travelling public. As well, anyone who makes representation to us, for us to take over coverage, we do tell them that we certainly would consider, but only after they would bring it up to what we call a standard, which is culverts ditching, Class A, and so on and so forth.

We are working more in the one-offs than just an overall, but overall our policy is that – technically, they are in our inventory, as you pointed out, but the coverage was pulled back. I can tell you that the demands coming in would really cut into our provincial roads budget; there is no doubt about it. That is a bigger piece because I cannot accept yours and turn around and not accept someone else's. It would have to be all or none. I can tell you from the requests that we have gotten, it would be a significant extension of our services.

MR. BUTLER: Just to grade them, say, in the spring and the fall?

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes, but it all adds up.

MR. BUTLER: My next questions go back to Hansard of last year, and I hope I am going to explain this because I asked the question last year. You will not find it in your book, it was under a certain heading, 2.2.06, and had to do with Property, Furnishings and Equipment.

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes.

MR. BUTLER: It had to do with two buildings. Apparently, there was $607,000 that was listed there for a down payment. When we were in the lockdown, we were given the names of the two buildings. So when we asked the question, at that time –

MR. HEDDERSON: You are referring to the two Johnson buildings?

MR. BUTLER: I do not know what they are. They would not tell us last year. They were saying then you were purchasing them or something.

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes, we purchase properties as we need them. We always have our eye out for real estate that could be of some value to government.

MR. BUTLER: Sure, yes.

MR. HEDDERSON: I could not say very much about them this time last year because the deal had not been struck. We were negotiating while the building was still being occupied by the owners. So we were into a little bit of a delicate situation.

Weldon, I think we have completed the transactions?

MR. MOORES: Yes.

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes, so the buildings are ours now and, as a matter of fact, are under renovation. I think that here in the building some of your workers are coming in and saying: I do not have a place to park. Of course, with our shed going up and the snow and that sort thing, we are on max here as you can well imagine.

In and around the greater area, trying to get real estate now in this market is really, really difficult. We believe by acquiring buildings such as this we are able to, again, house our departments or line departments in a manner which is suitable. So those two buildings are purchased.

What about the renovations? Are they ready for occupancy or close to it?

OFFICIAL: Not yet. Some of the funding in this year's Budget is to complete the renovations.

MR. HEDDERSON: We will gear those up. Who goes in there, will be a decision of government, of course.

MR. BUTLER: You confirmed the names we were given last year; that is all I was after. I thought it might have been two other buildings.

MR. HEDDERSON: We were a little bit coy last year because, again, it was a little bit delicate. When you are negotiating for a price and you have tenants down in the building and all of a sudden they hear the building has been sold. That is the sort of thing. Again, you picked it up, that was the down payment, and this year you will probably see that we went through.

MR. BUTLER: Thank you.

This question probably came out of Natural Resources last evening, with regard to the Abitibi site. I think the comment was made that Transportation and Works now manage the site.

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes, we do.

MR. BUTLER: I was just wondering: What is going on there, what is the cost of security, or anything you can relate on that?

MR. HEDDERSON: As you know, both you and Lorraine, that mill is ours now. We had to move in and put security on it because there are very valuable assets that are still within that building, and for safety purposes as well. One of the biggest concerns we had: Now that the mill has closed down, there is no heat in there. Before, there was so much heat up on the ceiling that no snow stayed on it. So the big thing was the electricity running through it, not only for the danger of fire but also with regard to the workers who were there. The first thing was to redirect the power and Hydro has that under control now.

That mill is still basically idled in the sense that we have not moved any major equipment, it might be a bit of this or that come out of it, but now we are looking at what we are going to do. That has to be decommissioned and decommissioned in a way with regard to the environment and so on and so forth. We will be seeking direction from government as to when that process would take place and, to date, that has not been decided. We still sit on the asset, keeping it safe. We have addressed some of the minor environmental - anything that comes up that would be of any danger, we have tried to mitigate that as quickly as we can.

CHAIR: Roland, if you have any more questions on that particular topic, we will probably go with it before I go back to Lorraine.

MR. BUTLER: Just the one.

CHAIR: Yes, okay.

MR. BUTLER: I am just wondering: Do you have an estimated cost on the security for what is happening out there?

MR. HEDDERSON: I will have to go to Weldon on that.

MR. MOORES: I do not have the number with me, we would have to go back and get it.

MR. HEDDERSON: Besides the mill as well, you realize that it is Grand Falls house and the managers house up there as well. I do not know the amount, but we certainly can get it for you.

MR. BUTLER: Okay, thank you. All right, sir.

CHAIR: Okay, thanks, Roland.

Lorraine.

MS MICHAEL: Just to follow up on that, what are the plans for those two other buildings, the managers house and –

MR. HEDDERSON: With the Grand Falls house, that has already been inventoried. The Rooms have been involved and also the Heritage Society of Grand Falls. They have gone in and they have inventoried everything. We have it under watch; the lights are still on and so on and so forth. We are working with those groups to make sure.

That is a show piece, to be honest with you. The managers house is more 1960s, 1970s.

MS MICHAEL: Right.

MR. HEDDERSON: So that could be repurposed for whatever it needs to be. We have made some representation to any part of government that would have a purpose for that particular managers house. I think the heritage house will be a heritage site, more or less.

MS MICHAEL: Okay, that is good to know.

Back to some line items, 3.3.01, Alterations and Improvements to Existing Facilities. I am assuming this is where the work, for example, on this building is coming in, that is the big cost. A major cost there would be this building. I am wondering, though: What is on the go with regard to energy retrofits to government buildings?

MR. CHIPPETT: Jamie Chippett, Deputy Minister.

Again, our ADM for Works is not here, but there is funding. There is $1 million in the base, actually, for energy improvements. I guess, generally speaking, there is a commitment in the energy plan to build new facilities, in particular, to a silver LEED standard. So that is considered in doing all of our new buildings, and several new schools in the last little while have been built to that standard.

MS MICHAEL: Right.

MR. CHIPPETT: In terms of existing facilities, that is actually something that Transportation and Works is looking at right now in terms of how we might look at buildings that are suitable to be retrofitted, from an energy efficiency perspective. That work is ongoing and, obviously, there is a great variation across the number of buildings that government owns, but I expect something in the near future on that.

MS MICHAEL: Was the repair of the windows here - was energy retrofitting some of the impetus for the changing of these windows?

MR. CHIPPETT: Again, our ADM for Works would have the details, but I do know that some of the consultants work that was done at the beginning, for example, around windows and so on, and the integrity of those. You can sit by some of them, the drafts and so on.

MR. HEDDERSON: Also, the water with the roofs and that sort of thing. It is has been a problem and needed to be addressed, not only energy wise but just making sure the building was kept up.

MS MICHAEL: I was aware of that.

MR. HEDDERSON: Two of it goes together.

MS MICHAEL: That is what I mean. I was sitting in a room where the effects of leaks were quite visible, but I was assuming also that energy retrofit would fit in with doing – it certainly would not be a total package because I think much more would have to be done with regard to energy retrofit, but at least these windows should be able to help a bit, besides taking care of the leaks.

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes. What we are looking at too, it is not only the envelope but the operations of the building with regard to our lights, with regard to our use of even Styrofoam plates and so on.

MS MICHAEL: Right.

MR. HEDDERSON: It is a big meal deal, we have it under review now but we have to be careful to make sure that what we are putting in is not way out that we cannot achieve it.

MS MICHAEL: I have to say that it is better at night to see a lot more darkness in this building when you look up at it. I live under the building.

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes, you have to understand too, as Roland has pointed out, that our electrical systems are not where we need to be. If you notice out on the parking lot, we are replacing all our lights.

MS MICHAEL: I saw that, yes.

MR. HEDDERSON: Again, that is about energy efficiency as well.

MS MICHAEL: Right.

Mentioning things in the building, you talked about Styrofoam plates and that kind of thing; I would like to mention the issue of bottled water.

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes.

MS MICHAEL: We live in a city that has excellent water. I know sometimes taste can be a problem in this building.

MR. HEDDERSON: Well, you acquire a taste for anything.

MS MICHAEL: In our office what we have done is we have just put a Brita filter on the faucet and it takes away that taste. We use the water out of the tap.

MR. HEDDERSON: Well, Lorraine, you hit right on it because the way it is now is that we are not necessarily all over the place but everyone is doing as they see.

MS MICHAEL: Right.

MR. HEDDERSON: We need to look at all the implications of this and try to go into buildings like this and do those sorts of things. Like I said it is not only the envelope, it is how people eat, drink and occupy the building that is going to be looked at as well. It is a type of a certification; that is what we are looking at.

MS MICHAEL: Right.

MR. HEDDERSON: I am not at a point yet that I can talk about it until I get the direction from government to go forward with it. That will be an ‘announceable'. Obviously, when that comes out, again you will see that exactly what you are saying there is where we need to go.

MS MICHAEL: Right, because we do not even think about the fact that when we are drinking from a bottle there was energy taken to produce that bottle.

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes, exactly.

MS MICHAEL: It is not just the use of the water; it is the use of the packaging and the bottling that is an energy issue as well.

MR. HEDDERSON: Exactly.

MS MICHAEL: It sounds like you are talking about that, so I am glad to know that you are talking about that. That is great. I look forward to hearing what you are going to come up with. Thank you.

Under 3.3.02, Development of New Facilities, there does not seem to be anything strange there. I do have a note from one of our researchers, though, that there is a new weigh scale in Wabush. Is that under this area here?

MR. HEDDERSON: Go ahead, Jamie.

MR. CHIPPETT: The weigh scale near Wabush is under this.

MS MICHAEL: It is under here. How much would that be costing, do you have that detail?

MR. CHIPPETT: It is $2 million in the 2011-2012 Budget.

MS MICHAEL: Right, okay. Where would that show up then under here, under the Purchased Services?

MR. CHIPPETT: Yes, under the Purchased Services.

MS MICHAEL: Okay, so basically, that line, $2 million of that will be the weigh scale. Is that correct?

MR. CHIPPETT: It is split throughout really, so about $2 million of the overall budget numbers.

MS MICHAEL: Okay, very good.

What else would be included then in the bottom line there, the Purchased Services being $2,980,000 and the Professional Services $720,000, besides the scale?

MR. HEDDERSON: Under the $4 million, you are looking at the weigh scales and also looking at depot-ferry terminal waiting facilities.

MS MICHAEL: Okay.

MR. HEDDERSON: That is the line that you would find it under.

MS MICHAEL: Right, thank you.

Heading 4.1.01, again I am assuming that the variance is Igor. It is the Air Subsidies.

MR. HEDDERSON: Which one is this?

MS MICHAEL: Heading 4.1.01, subsidization of air services in response to emergency situations. There is a $630,000 variance.

MR. MOORES: Weldon Moores.

Part of it is Igor and part of it is there was lack of, I guess, ice and people in Norman's Bay could not travel back and forth. It was after our ferry service came off, so we had to put in some assistance to Norman's Bay as well.

MS MICHAEL: Okay, great.

I had not thought about asking this but since you put it that way, I think I should ask. I know that government is not responsible for air travel into Black Tickle, but with the loss of Air Labrador going into Black Tickle people there, I think, are in a really bad way, especially at this time of year. Is Transportation and Works involved with Black Tickle?

MR. HEDDERSON: What we are running across, Lorraine, is that we mentioned change and climate change; things have changed dramatically with regard to our ability to provide marine services. We are leaving the boats in later now and in our new contracts we are making provisions so that we can leave them in as long as we need them, because sometimes there was a deadline and they came out regardless.

Black Tickle is a challenge because, obviously, in years gone by, the ferry would come off one week and the next week she would be froze up and you could go anywhere you like, but now it is later in the year and so on and so forth. We are working with them on that particular one because the provider pulled out. The need just was not there. They were not getting the flow of passengers that they needed to sustain it. The Skedivac is going in there on a regular basis. The Skedivac is basically from Health, so we are working now to see can we find some solution within the Skedivac systems because there are two systems: one for Black Tickle up to Nain and for Southern Labrador. So that is what we are doing now. We are in close contact with Black Tickle, talking to them and trying to find ways that we can provide that service to them.

MS MICHAEL: The Skedivac is really there because of health-related travel.

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes. Sharon, can you just go through the Skedivac?

MS VOKEY: They use it for non-urgent medical travel.

MS MICHAEL: Yes.

MS VOKEY: There are seats held depending on – they have no certainty there at any time if they will get a seat depending on the number of people who are flying for medical travel. So we are looking at other options there because there is other usage of that for departmental staff of the Regional Health Authority. I believe, as well, Education takes advantage of available seats as well. We are looking at that.

We are also working with Labrador and Aboriginal Affairs on this with the Department of Health and Community Services. We have been in touch with the airlines on this as well, so we are looking at it from a bigger government perspective of what we can do there and in extending the season, even getting longliners in there at different times of the year. So we are working with the people in close contact.

MS MICHAEL: What will be happening, Minister, at the moment with regard to even things like their postal delivery and supplies, et cetera, right now?

MS VOKEY: Like a lot of communities, they still can get in and out now. I know I spoke to them late last week, Friday, I think, was the last day I spoke to them there. They are still getting some supplies in and out and they can still get some supplies in and out on the Skedivac. Our shipping season will start up within another month, but they stock up during the winter as the other North Coast communities do. There has not been an issue with getting supplies in and out right now.

MR. HEDDERSON: We are watching closely and, again, we act as necessary. Obviously, we do not want to see them without supplies and so on.

MS MICHAEL: Okay.

It is a serious situation. They are a small population, but they are citizens of this Province, residents of the Province, and we have to take care of them.

MR. HEDDERSON: Absolutely. We have responded, as best we can, given the resources that we have. Obviously, you have just seen in that one with Norman's Bay and this year, in particular, was a different year and that is why you see such a spike: $780,000. Not only that, but up around Goose Bay was –

OFFICIAL: Mud Lake.

MR. HEDDERSON: Mud Lake, they just found themselves in a different situation that they have never experienced before. We responded to make sure they have the supplies in. If there are emergencies, obviously the medevac goes in and takes care of those sorts of things.

Again, there are changes and trying to respond to the changes has really presented challenges. As we go forward, we are going to have to build more contingencies into that service.

MS MICHAEL: Yes.

MR. HEDDERSON: That is where I am going right now. Right now is more reactive than planning. I do not like it to be that way. Also, to give them some sense of comfort that if this happens, this will happen.

MS MICHAEL: Okay. Thank you.

Heading 4.1.02, Airstrip Maintenance, subheading 05, Professional Services, there was nothing budgeted but $140,000 was expended.

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes, one-time, that is regarding the airstrips in Labrador. I do not know if it is a requirement, but we went ahead and did a safety management system. I think it was under the requirements so it was a one-time, necessary to do, and we had to do it. We had not anticipated it but, naturally, responded to it.

CHAIR: Lorraine, do you have many more questions on this particular topic because we can come back to you, if it is okay?

MS MICHAEL: Yes, just one more question under that subheading.

CHAIR: Okay, that is fine (inaudible).

MS MICHAEL: Under 04, again, there is a big variance there of about $100,000.

MR. HEDDERSON: $100,000 in Supplies?

MS MICHAEL: Yes.

MR. HEDDERSON: Fuel costs are part of it and increased maintenance. That is $100,000, not a big dollar when you think of the cost of fuel.

MS MICHAEL: No.

MR. HEDDERSON: It was related to more maintenance and, of course, the fuel cost.

MS MICHAEL: The fuel for the equipment that does the snow removal?

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes.

MS MICHAEL: Okay. Thank you.

All right, I will pass it over.

CHAIR: Okay.

Roland.

MR. BUTLER: Thank you.

Just a note on the Black Tickle one, that is one of the ones I had there, and my understanding was they did not have any air or marine service since early April, but they are still getting items in there I guess.

MR. HEDDERSON: The Skedivac is still going in there and any contracted service. I would not say right now the postal. I will check on that.

MR. BUTLER: Yes.

Just two or three one-liners, heading 1.2.03.

MR. HEDDERSON: Heading 1.2…?

MR. BUTLER: Yes, 1.2.03, Human Resource Management, under 04, Supplies. I know there was a huge difference in the number there. Budgeted was $4,500 and it went to $58,000. I was just wondering if you would elaborate on that.

MR. HEDDERSON: You go ahead, Jamie.

MR. CHIPPETT: That was in subhead 03, is that correct, or 04?

MR. BUTLER: Heading 1.2.03.04, Supplies.

MR. CHIPPETT: Supplies, right.

Those were due to increased requirements for office and training supplies. Just to give you an idea of that variance in terms of the dollar value, for example, monitors for officials who would work in enclosed spaces, those would be to the tune of about $13,000 each, so that would explain that variance.

MR. BUTLER: Yes.

The other one is 1.2.06, Administrative Support, under subheading 07, Property, Furnishings and Equipment. I know that as compared to what was budgeted it was overspent by $250,000.

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes, this goes back to some initiatives that we are putting in, Roland, and this one was bridge management. Again, it is about safety.

Gary, I guess that was equipment or a program?

MR. GOSSE: Actually, the $250,000 extra was for (inaudible) containers.

[Laughter]

MR. HEDDERSON: Okay, sorry about that.

MR. BUTLER: What was that?

MR. GOSSE: (Inaudible) freight containers for the Labrador freight service.

MR. HEDDERSON: We had some problems with the containers going up there. I was reading the other one.

MR. BUTLER: The last one under the one-liners is 2.1.03, Maintenance and Repairs, subhead 03, Transportation and Communications.

MR. HEDDERSON: Heading 2.1.03?

MR. BUTLER: Yes.

It was budgeted $196,600 and it was revised at $218,500.

MR. HEDDERSON: Subsection 03, is it?

MR. BUTLER: Yes, Transportation and Communications.

MR. CHIPPETT: Jamie Chippett.

Increased requirement for travel cost was a part of that and, in particular, one-time travel cost associated with the TODS program, the signage that you referenced earlier.

MR. BUTLER: Okay.

In the Departmental Salary Details – I do not know if anyone has the book there or not - just a couple of general questions, that is all. On page 59, I think, it is. That is under the one Building Utilities and Maintenance where is says Tradesworker II and Tradesworker I; there is forty-one and thirty. I was just wondering if you can explain what trades that would be. I guess it is carpenters, electricians or what have you. Is that what it is for? Is that the group we are referring to?

MR. MOORES: Weldon Moores, ADM, Strategic and Corporate Services.

Yes, although a Tradesworker I level would normally not be an apprentice, it would be a non-trade position but doing similar support work.

MR. BUTLER: Okay.

MR. MOORES: Where a Tradesworker II would be a full-blown electrician or plumber or whatever. A Tradesworker III would be more of a quasi-supervisor, still a tradesperson.

MR. BUTLER: The other one in this book here is on page 62 - I do not know what you have there - Ferry Operations. I know, Minister, from time to time when we ask questions we talk about there is a shortage of Captains and so on, and sometimes that is why there are delays, they cannot continue on. I notice there Ferry Captain III, Ferry Captain II, and Ferry Captain I, there is a total of fifteen of them and then the Mate, First Class, there are eleven of those.

So with the new system that is coming on now, the new ferries as they unfold - and I know there are two coming down this year - will you have to hire new Captains? I know you said one time they are difficult to get as well. I am just wondering –

MR. HEDDERSON: You are looking for a job, aren't you?

MR. BUTLER: I only have six months left.

MR. ALEXANDER: Paul Alexander, ADM, Marine.

No, we are not hiring any new people because there is going to be a natural transition from old vessels to new vessels. The Captains and the Mates and the people who worked on the old vessels that will be decommissioned, will transfer to the new vessels.

MR. BUTLER: So the issue where sometimes they said the service was delayed because they could not continue going, you have no plans to hire extra for that reason; that is what I am trying to find out.

MR. ALEXANDER: We have schedules to maintain and the current human resources that we have in place can maintain those schedules. If you are talking about going beyond that like shift systems, we have not done that.

MR. BUTLER: So at this point in time everything is okay there?

MR. ALEXANDER: That is right.

MR. BUTLER: Sir, I only have three others questions, I think.

I have to read this because I have not went through it properly. The Budget contained $2 million to put in a new weigh scale in the Wabush area.

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes.

MR. BUTLER: I could be corrected here, it was my understanding that this was in last year's Budget as well, and I have been told that they are having tracker trailer loads of up to 100,000 pounds travel over the Trans-Labrador Highway to avoid the restrictions via the Quebec access. I am just wondering: What is the estimated time of completion of this project so that it can be taken care of?

MR. HEDDERSON: Gary, do you have any thought on that?

MR. GOSSE: The completion date for the weigh scale will be late this summer. We have this site work done for the weigh scales now. There is the ability now for Government Services to be able to put in a portable scale if they want to monitor traffic on the Trans-Labrador, but the permanent facility should be finished late this summer.

MR. BUTLER: Okay.

Minister, I touched on this earlier about the money that was in the Budget this year for the Trans-Labrador Highway, and I could be corrected again. I believe Phase I and II of the Trans-Labrador Highway from Happy Valley-Goose Bay to L'Anse au Clair, I do not think there is any money in this year's Budget for that Phase and there are major problems there with the condition of the road.

MR. HEDDERSON: Basically, the money for Phase II and III is maintenance money.

MR. BUTLER: Okay, so there is nothing for that area there is it, this year in the Budget?

MR. HEDDERSON: No.

We are continuing on with our strategy, which is to continue the widening and hardening of Phase I. As indicated, that will be finished by 2014; and also indicated that now, as we are getting close to that transition, that is a decision point of government as to where we go from here.

MR. BUTLER: Okay.

My last question, the new contractual agreement that was reached with new companies to provide freight and passenger marine service to the North Coast, I am just wondering: Does the department feel confident the contractor can provide a reliable and effective service to the people there based on the low cost, as compared to what the cost was to provide the service before?

MR. HEDDERSON: Again, we had a very competitive tendering. The companies that stepped forward, we checked them out and they were compliant in their bids. They were awarded it, they have since basically gotten prepared to take over that service. We are very confident.

Paul, is there any word on that?

MR. ALEXANDER: Yes, Minister. Actually, the bids were what we expected or maybe just exactly what we expected. The cost of the tenders that were issued, the contracts that were awarded, are in order of magnitude of what we paid the incumbent, the current incumbent last year, but with a major downsize in the scope of work with the Bond no longer providing service to Goose Bay it makes sense, the amount of the bids made sense.

MR. BUTLER: So you think the service can be provided?

MR. ALEXANDER: Yes, we met with both contractors and went through their submissions and they assure us they are quite comfortable with their bids and the profit margins. They assure us that they are quite willing to provide an even better service than was provided in the past.

MR. BUTLER: Just one other little thing, I mentioned to you about the Apollo and the Straits, how you are looking at the design of this one now, wondering if it would meet the needs there. How far down is the replacement of the Apollo on the list of priorities? I know you have a clever list there of what is happening and so on.

MR. HEDDERSON: The thing about the Apollo is that the contract is up in 2013, so we are getting active now to see what is out there to replace - or to see what Expressions of Interest are out there.

As a side note, I indicated that we are designing a boat that might be acceptable up there, but I have not gotten direction from government and that is something that we will be seeking as we go forward, both on Phase II and Phase III of the Trans-Labrador Highway, on the Straits services. As well, we are not finished with the North Coast because, again, we are always looking for ways to better the services. Right now we are replacing the Astron with the Dutch Runner and we are seeing how that is going to work out; but again, always trying to find ways in which we can better the service. Right now, the Apollo is in place until 2013.

Capacity-wise up to this point in time, she can handle that capacity. Except there are times that we found, like when the schools close down in June, everyone makes a rush to the ferry, and that weekend is a particular challenge.

As well, as you know, even though the propeller did not stop the Apollo from going across, it had to be repaired. The redundancy aspect of it, we are going to have to really look at. It just so happened that the Bond was in refit to get ready for the North, so we have the contingency that we have in place there now.

MR. BUTLER: That is it for me, sir. I want to thank you, Minister, and your staff for your responses this morning.

MR. HEDDERSON: Thank you.

Lorraine, any more –

CHAIR: Lorraine.

MS MICHAEL: Just one more.

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes, go ahead.

MS MICHAEL: The very last line item actually, 4.3.03, Government-Operated Aircraft. It seems like something has fallen off the table here or maybe not; or something was planned that got taken care of. So I guess the question is: What is the $18.9 million for this year? The money before it, which I assume it may have been the water bombers, was it, the $58 million that was spent?

MR. HEDDERSON: Yes, indeed. As I pointed out, in all likelihood we will have one water bomber coming in this year.

MS MICHAEL: Oh, that is the $18.9 million.

MR. HEDDERSON: We are looking at the fourth one. Now the contingent will still be six but, again, just a little change in plan, nothing serious, it is just that it is delayed. Taking it in September or whatever is no advantage with the fire season over.

MS MICHAEL: No, right. Okay, I just wanted to check on that. That is it.

Minister, I thank you and your staff. It was a very good session this morning.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

MR. HEDDERSON: Again, to both Roland and Lorraine, Estimates do not stop here, any time that you want to make an inquiry on any of the line items there, please feel free, either through my office and, basically, we will try to accommodate what requests you want to put forward.

Again, thank you for your questions today and, of course, to my colleagues.

CHAIR: No more questions?

Okay, we will call for all of the subheads.

CLERK: Subheads 1.1.01 to 4.3.03 inclusive.

CHAIR: Shall 1.1.01 to 4.3.03 carry?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

On motion, subheads 1.1.01 through 4.3.03 carried.

CHAIR: Shall the total carry?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

On motion, Department of Transportation and Works, total heads, carried.

CHAIR: Shall I report the Estimates of the Department of Transportation and Works carried without amendment?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

On motion, Estimates of the Department of Transportation and Works carried without amendment.

CHAIR: Before we adjourn, two things, our next meeting for Government Services will be on Wednesday, May 11, 5:30 p.m. and we will be dealing with Finance and Treasury Board, Public Service Commission, and OCIO. I would like to, as well, as Chair, thank the minister and your staff from your department and our Committee as well. We will see you, I guess, on Wednesday, May 11.

No further business, I will ask for a motion for adjournment.

MR. POLLARD: So moved.

CHAIR: Moved by MHA Kevin Pollard.

MR. LODER: Seconded.

CHAIR: All those in favour, ‘aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye.

CHAIR: Adjourned.

Thank you.

On motion, the Committee adjourned.